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09-06-2009, 03:42 PM #1
Dogs: Tail docking, dew claw removal
There are a lot of dog owners on this board so I thought this would be a good place to ask this question.
I don't have a dog but I'm considering getting a breed that usually has the tail cropped and the dew claws removed (but ears are left un-cut). I'm not a big fan of this and a regular Google search gives me two sides with equally valid points to do it.
What is the general consensus between dog owners about whether this is necessary or not? I don't really want to sound the fool by asking a breeder to sell me an undocked dog if this is a completely abnormal request. Also I don't want to put a dog under undue stress if I find it needs docking/claw removal when it's older.
Thanks for any/all opinions.
09-06-2009, 03:46 PM #2
not sure about the claws but i think the whole tail docking thing is ********. A dog isn't complete without a tail. Thats just my opinion.HERITAGE FOOD GROUP
Hamilton, ON L8E 2W5
Telephone: 905-561-45,Toll Free: 1-877-945-2345
09-06-2009, 04:03 PM #3
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It all depends on the breed you are looking at. I have a rotti, well have had 2, but only have one now.....mine are from a reputable breeder who does his own docking of the tails. I recall hearing somewhere that some vets are getting out of the practise of docking tails as well as cutting the ears which is standard for some breeds as well. The dew claws should always be removed I believe - while they are like our thumbs - on a dog I would be more worried of them getting caught on something while they are out playing or moving around and getting tore off accidentally or ripped at. This is all cosmetic though, if you are planning on showing your dog - it doesn't "need" to be done. You can request a dog not have it's tail done by your breeder but if they are a registered animal with the CKC - the breeder may not agree to it. You will have to check with your breeder to see. It is their names (kennel's name) on the line as well...I know my breeder will always dock his tail because a rotti with an undocked tail might be looked at as not being "pure bred" which would effect his name as a breeder and the price he would ask for his puppies. As I said it is all personal preferance and all purely cosmetic. While I do not mind a dog without a tail, or in my case with just a "nubbin'", I do not like the look of a dog with it's ears cropped. This to me is not appealing, but that's just my thought.
What dog were you interested in getting? Speak with your breeder and see what they have to say. If it's a back-yeard breeder or an unlicensed breeder - well - there are alot of things I could say about that but will not get into it as it is a heated debate with many people. Pros and cons on either side but a back yard breeder may not care if your dog's tail is undocked or not. There are alot of good unlicensed breeders but there are alot of shady ones as well so just do your research on their dogs (previous puppies) and see if you can speak with previous customers before picking one to see if you can get a referal.
09-06-2009, 04:04 PM #4
I have a Doberman an her tail is docked. Breeders typically get the tail done when the pup is only 3 days old. Breeders dock tail because it's the breeds standard but if you ask the breeder not to get the puppies tail docked they may understand how you feel about it. I'd like to hear what others think of tail docking.
09-06-2009, 04:11 PM #5
My parents breed german short hair pointers and do their own tail docking.
Since they are bird hunting dogs and are used for it by most of the people who by the pups having a short tail is preffered. If you have seen these dogs run through thick brush you could see why having no tail would be an advantage. Years ago when these dogs tails were not docked they would get lots of deep cuts from branches and thorns. Not pretty to see.
Here is a interesting statistic I found. "Within the 50 undocked Pointer litters registered in that year with the Swedish Kennel Club, 38% of dogs suffered tail injury before they were 18 months old and in 1991, the number of individuals with tail injures had increased to 51% of the group."
This is done before the dogs are 3 day old and the pups barley cry or even bleed when it is done.
09-06-2009, 04:18 PM #6
09-06-2009, 04:23 PM #7
The dew claws are docked because they could potentially be injured and/or ripped off when the dog is older, during regular exercise activity and such, especially for working dogs.
I agree with clipping the dewclaws, I did it with the malamute pups our female had a few years back because most of the pups had huge ones. The smaller dewies, though, that are set close to the leg, aren't as much of an issue and were left alone.
Tail and ear-docking though? What benefit to the dog does that have, other than show? In some cases, ear-docking is to prevent ear infection.. but what's wrong with cleaning your dogs ears once every couple of weeks or so? I don't really agree with it. To each their own, of course, but the process of ear-docking is not a comfortable one for the dog.. and docking the tail is removing one of their main tools for communication. Just sayin'.
09-06-2009, 05:16 PM #8
I an not a fan of docking anything, some breeds need the tail docked because there is a friction point that sometimes can be brittle. With regards to the Dew claws, sometimes it is necessary. My Austrailian Sheperd needed his back dew claws removed because they really stuck out. If they were to have gotten caught on something and torn off the emergency vet visit with the necessary repairs to his foot were upwards of $1000, so $90.00 to have them removed sounded really good to me.
Now cropping ears, etc looks ********, it is not needed and the god doesn't benefit in anyway except having the Breed Standard look to it.
Dobermans, mastifs, cane corso's, any of them really don't need it. It is a human preferance if anything.
Just my opinion.
ChrisThe other half of Lizzie B.
enough to keep me busy.
09-06-2009, 06:12 PM #9
I started out breeding Airedale Terriers, you have to do the dew claws and the tails on them, although you just take of a bit of the tail they keep a good 2/3 of their tail. Anyway I hated having to do it... so I got into Bull Terriers... no docking or clipping of anything. Much more fun breed too.... got out of that when my previous relationship dissolved ... but I have another Bully now...
It really is a breed standard thing that forces breeders to do it... we always showed our dogs and put championships on them before we would consider breeding them... so it's a catch 22 if you want to be looked at as a reputable breeder you have to follow the breed standard in order to show and champion your dog.
At some point as these dogs were being developed why not add a dog with the ears you want on the breed to the mix? When they wanted to add colour to the bull terriers that were all white, they bred them to Staffordshire bull terriers to get the colours and then just back to bullys until they were completely back to the bully look but now with the variety of colours that the staff bull has ...
As others have said we would do the dew claws and the tails on the airedales when they were a couple of days old ... i think it was a lot less traumatic for them at that age and they were over it in a matter of seconds and back to sleep...
09-06-2009, 06:48 PM #10
also i think it would be a good thing to know what your looking for in a dog.
Show standard or just a regular pet around the house hold.
If he were to be a pet I then I think he would be just fine with out tail-docking or had their ears done. It would take that little extra to clean though.
My german shepherd ended up with one ear 2/3 flopping, it never went erect, and i suppose that was because he was too rough when playing with out other dog. But that one floppy ear is 3x as dirty as the ear that's erect.
If the breeder doesn't have any preference than i'd say choose no docking and no ear cropping. Dew claws are better taken off now than ripped off later for sure.
09-06-2009, 07:10 PM #11
Thanks for the replies so far. I don't have to worry about the ears because those are left intact for this breed but I don't think the dog would miss its dew claws. It seems these are removed for health, not cosmetic.
I'm not sold on the tail, though. I live in the city so the worst punishment the dog (and tail) would get is a regular beating from the cat.
09-06-2009, 08:09 PM #12
- southern ontario
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I think that, on the whole, tail docking should be discouraged. But some dogs really are hell on their tails, and are better off without it. I know someone who had their pitbull docked because she wagged with such enthusiasm that she would often split her tail open when it got whacked against a wall or something, and it was always a scabby mess (and now she gets compliments on her pretty boxer instead of being spat at for her viscious pitbull ). I don't like docking for aesthetic reasons though, I think breed standards need a thorough re-tooling. Ear-cropping is 100% ********, however. Painful for the dog, no practical reasons for doing it.
09-06-2009, 08:52 PM #13
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Cropped tails are such a selective thing.....having had dogs with tails (collie) and without...i actually prefer without - if it suits the breed that is. I couldn't picture a tailess lab or collie unless there was something medically wrong that it needed to have it removed. For me not having a tail means I don't have to make sure there is any poop stuck to the fur, the fur is not matted, the tail is not used as a weapon (a fast wagging tail can really smart when whacked against your leg the right way), it doesn't clear the coffee table with a careless wag, plus it can't be used against the dog for people pulling on it and causing it pain. Now, I would never have a tail removed if it wasn't part of the breed standard. I would love to get an Austrailian cattle Dog or a Catahoula Leopard Dog but they are breeds that keep their tail as the norm...so the dog would have it's tail.
I would never have the ears done - no matter what the norm is - it looks so painful when it is done and takes so long to heal. Some get crappy jobs done so the ear doesn't look right.
So, good luck with your decision, let us know what the breeder says.
09-06-2009, 09:15 PM #14
But that being said unless they are really floppy and stick way out they do not have to be removed. If they are tight against the leg they have little chance of getting caught on anything.
Your call, but remember what I said in my other post about costs of torn dew claws or surgically removed. THe cost difference is crazy.
ChrisThe other half of Lizzie B.
enough to keep me busy.
09-06-2009, 10:17 PM #15
- New Brunswick
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dewclaw removal, tail docking and ear cropping are now illegal in New Brunswick as of March 2009. In my opinion of working in a vat hospital and helping with the procedures myself this is my opinion. No ears should be cropped, i think it serves no purpose and puts them through alot of pain, dewcalws should be removed if they are not connected too any joint for sure, but here it has to be authorized by a vet, otherwise they wont remove them, and as the tails, the bigger breeds sometimes do need them docked later in life, as they do get really excited and damage the tails, thus having to dock them later on, anyways that is my opinion, hope it helps.
09-06-2009, 10:42 PM #16
I was expecting a litter of boxer pups in April but she had a false preganacy
I checked with the vets in my area and to do the dew claws and tail per pup
it was $40 for both and a one time $20 fee for the surgical kit.
In my opinion boxers should have atleast thier dew claws removed as they tend to be a jumpy dog and it could be easy ripped or torn. Not a pretty thing trust me i had to remove a torn nail from my parents German Shepherd it bled like crazy she was a trooper about it though but it could of been easy prevented if the breeder only removed them after birth ( I have also herd that there is a chance the dog my bleed to death if it's not noticed or treated right away not sure how true it is but i never wanted to take the chance.)
As for my boxer she has her tail and dew claws removed I have no problem with that and it helps to prevent the grief of dealing with the pittbull haters out there as the two breeds can sometimes be confused as the other. so the docked tail helps with that. But the ears are a different story unless you are showing you dog i don't believe it's nessesary.
As for you choice in pet the min pin and manchester terrier are very simmilar, difference being that the min pin have their tail docked
either way they are a great little dog so tail dock and dewclaws removed or not i'm sure you with be happy with the breed.
as for breeders most tend to sell thier pups with a non-breeders agreement so that kinda throws the whole point of the breed standerd out the window being you normally have to have that pet spayed or nutered and a dog that cannot repurduce isn't able to been shown as far as i know
so it all comes down to your personal preference and that should be you own not everyone else's.
09-06-2009, 10:51 PM #17
Lots of good points here... the only issue is unless you get on a waiting list,,, you won't be able to put your order in for non-docked pups, remember this is done really early... I think in most breeds the ears are done a little later so you may have a choice for that...dew claws are done with the tail so really early (2 to 3 days old) and maybe no choice for the buyer.
09-06-2009, 11:02 PM #18
I did speak to one breeder. Basically I was told that they only breed the dogs with the intention of producing a specific colour/sex for show. In other words, they aren't producing them just to sell. So if they are looking to produce a red female then all female reds from the litter will be docked and if they don't get a show quality puppy, they can be sold. If the litter has a chocolate or a male, those can be left undocked if I want.
It's a little hard to find good breeders because I'm new to dogs. For years I've read or seen shows about how to pick them and what to look for, etc. but I don't have the connections that others may have. And I'm sure the internet isn't really the best place to look for breeders. Of course if you go to ****** there are min pins everywhere but some of those don't look right and I don't think reputable breeders advertise there. Am I wrong? Am I overlooking ****** out of snobbery?
09-06-2009, 11:37 PM #19
09-06-2009, 11:46 PM #20